Asian in Austin

Sandra Pham: Hey y'all, I'm Sandra Pham.

Minh Vu: And I'm Minh Vu.

Welcome to Asian in Austin.

All right, so I think as soon as
we created this podcast, it's been

our goal to try to do an episode
dedicated to mental health, especially

in our community and knowing how
it's kind of a taboo subject.

At least growing up for me, it was a
taboo subject and it probably still is.

My parents, if I'm being honest
probably don't have the most

modern take on mental health.

I've definitely seen them evolve a
little bit around it, but like going to

a therapist is kind of a still, you know,
hand over mouth, gasp type of moment.

Sandra Pham: Stigmatized for sure.

Yeah, I think you and I on a personal
level have a lot of these conversations

around mental health and I think we've
definitely struggled on navigating how we

want to talk about it on this podcast and
so why we've waited until season three to

really talk about it, I think, formally
on an episode and bring on this guest.

But I'm so thrilled and excited that
we have a lot more to talk about.

I think there's Subject is just so
interesting to me and so intricate, but

I'm glad we're finally just doing it.

Minh Vu: What a cool opportunity to
because earlier this year you hosted

this amazing panel was very strong
women in the community for SXSW.

And that's, that's kind of where
actually, yeah, SX, I remember I going

to like a meeting or the organizers
who had sessions or panels right?

SX put on this like orientation and I
saw our guest speak at this session and

I was like, Sandra, I think we found our
person we should bring on the podcast.

And then another opportunity came
where we were trying to help support

a panel and you reached out to her.

And yeah, no.

How was that?

Tell me more about that.

Can you tell our
listeners more about that?

Sandra Pham: Yeah, I think it
was a little bit of kismet.

We were really fortunate.

I think we had through hearsay
have heard of our guest here, and I

was fortunate enough to moderate a
panel where our guest was also on.

Really impressed and just
interested in her story.

So I'm feeling very fortunate that she
was able to make time and join us today.

And I think our listeners are
really going to resonate with

some of the topics we dig into.

Minh Vu: Yeah, so we
keep on saying our guest.

Our guest is Dr.

Pooja Lakshmin and yeah, I think
let's get into her bio and then

we'll get into the interview, but Dr.

Pooja Lakshmin MD Is a board certified
psychiatrist, author, keynote speaker,

and a contributor to the New York
Times her debut book, "Real Self-Care:

Crystals, Cleanses, and Bubble Bath
not Included", is an NPR Best Book

of 2023 and a national bestseller.

"Real Self-Care" has been featured
by Good Morning America, NPR's

"Code Switch," the New York Times,
the Ezra Klein Show, the Guardian,

and translated into 10 languages.

She lives in Austin with her
partner, Justin, their toddler,

and their two cats, Kitty and Fifi.

Needless to say, we're so fortunate
and feel so humbled that Dr.

Lakshmin Shared her time with us
to be able to talk more about her

book and even her story with us
so I'm really excited for you all

to listen in and let's get into it

Hey, Dr.

Lakshmin, thank you so much
for joining us today today on

the Asian in Austin podcast.

I know you've got a super busy schedule.

You've been all around sharing some more
of your story in your book, and I'm just

really appreciative that you've been able
to share some of your time with us today.

So welcome.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Thank you.

It's a pleasure to be
here with both of you.

Minh Vu: Yeah, so we start our
episodes off by giving our guests

an opportunity to share a little
bit more about their identities.

So I'm wondering if you could share
with our listeners your ethnicities,

pronouns, any other identities
that you'd like to share with us.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, absolutely.

So I am South Asian American.

I go by she, her, I, my parents
immigrated to the United States, so

I am second generation slash first.

I always get confused.

I feel like it's like one and a half
generation, but yeah, so kind of a lot of

the typical tensions and struggles that
come with being the first generation that

is grown, that's born here and growing up
here, which I'm sure we will dive into.

That's it.

Minh Vu: Yeah.

Appreciate it.

And yeah, that definitely resonates.

We, Sandra and I have definitely
discussed a lot, some of the pressures

that can sometimes occur or, you know,
get brought up when you're kind of

the first to navigate a lot of, in
this case, like the American systems.

So I know you've had quite a year, but
how's 2024 been treating you so far?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: 2024 has
really been off to a great start.

I, my book "Real Self-Care" came out last
year, last March, and so the book launch

kind of took me all over and it really, it
really changed kind of the trajectory of

my career and what I do for work in some
sense, because before the book came out,

it did not used to travel at all for work.

Now, since I'm being asked to
bring "Real Self-Care" to all these

different organizations and schools
and places, I'm on the road more, but

I think I have come into 2024 kind of
feeling like I'm hitting my stride.

My son just turned two last weekend,
and so I also feel like me and my

partner Justin are kind of like hitting
our stride as parents also now that

we've been doing this for two years.

So yeah, I can't complain.

I mean, I guess the only thing I
can complain about is the heat.

Because it's so freaking hot right
now, but that is Austin in the summer.

Minh Vu: I know it's starting.

I can't believe we're already
here with that heat and also happy

belated birthday to your son.

That's so awesome.

Really excited and happy to see the
book launch and this new chapter of your

career has really kind of rocketed off.

So congratulations.

Sandra Pham: Thank you.

Yeah, so I want to jump in and I want
to go back a couple, a few years and

kind of talk about Pooja growing up and
taking a look at, you know, something

I know that you've mentioned before on
the panel and something that resonated

with a lot of folks is just your
upbringing, you know, addressing the

patriarchal South Asian culture, how
you navigated that, this perception of

you needing to be a good Indian girl.

How did that all really shape you
in adolescence or even managing

early stages in your career and then
wanting to pursue where you are today?

I'd love for you to dig a
little bit further into that.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I think that, like I
mentioned earlier, being kind of the first

generation that's born and raised here.

We are kind of the holders of
this assimilation process, but

also the tension that inherently
comes when you are spending.

Much of your time in a new culture, quote
unquote "new", you know, American culture.

And then there's the quote unquote "old
culture" at home with your parents.

So for me, you know, my
parents are from South Asia.

They came here, my mom
was in her twenties.

They had an arranged marriage, and my
dad had gone to medical school in India.

And past all of his, you know, the
extensive licensing examinations and

things that foreign medical graduates
have to go through and was able to

get a residency in Philadelphia.

And he used to practice as a physician.

So my dad was a doctor.

My mom stayed at home and
raised me and my sister.

My sister is nine years younger than me,
so I kind of feel like we were both, to

some extent, only children because by
the time she was born, I was in such a

different life stage and you know, then
when she was sort of like growing up for a

lot of it, I was kind of out of the house.

I guess that model minority myth
definitely was strong in my family.

You know, it was kind of like
studying was the most important

thing and getting good grades.

And it was just sort of expected.

It wasn't necessarily that it was praised.

It was just sort of expected.

There wasn't like, there
was no question about it.

You know, it was just, well, that's...

and looking back, I think it's, that's
interesting because I do feel like

friends that I had that were not Asian...

it just felt like their childhoods were
more well, well rounded and there was

more of an opportunity for them to be
children in a way where I think for

first gen kids, we do bear this burden of
becoming parentified more quickly, like

having to grow up more quickly because
you're also serving as a translator

to some extent, sometimes in families,
like literally as a translator and then,

you know, also kind of metaphorically.

So, you know, I went through all of
the sort of typical struggles that a

lot of Indian girls went through in
the 90s and 2000s and still go through.

I hated that my skin was
darker than everybody else's.

I desperately wanted to have blonde
hair and blue eyes and white skin.

I was you know, kind of embarrassed
about the food that my family

ate, and I didn't understand why.

I remember I was saying, like, we had to
eat two dinners, we had to eat the roti,

and then we also had to eat the rice.

And I was like, why do
we have two dinners?

You know?

And at that time, Indian food
was not cool, like it is now.

So it really was, like, weird.

Like, I didn't want to
talk about it with friends.

Like, I wouldn't have friends over
for dinner or anything like that.

And yeah, so I, it was a really...

and I grew up in, in a predominantly
white area of Pennsylvania, about an

hour and a half outside of Philadelphia.

And it was once I went to college
at University of Pennsylvania

at Penn that I kind of found
more of my community, I guess.

But even, it's interesting because
I think in some ways I always

felt like I was too white to fit
in with the super Indian folks.

And then I was like, not.

I was not a white person, so I was
brown and didn't fit in with, so I

always kind of fell in between because
at Penn there is a very strong Indian,

South Asian community and lots of
different interest groups and, you know,

dance and all these different things.

And I'm a terrible dancer and I
remember trying to, trying out

for, at Penn it's called PENNaach.

I tried out and it was horrible.

Like, you know, so I just kind
of always felt like, oh gosh,

I'm not even doing that right.

And I guess the other piece and sorry,
this is a very long winded answer, but

is that I spend a lot of time in India
growing up probably every other summer.

My mom and I, and then when my
sister was born, she would come

to, we'd spend the whole summer at
my grandmother's house in India.

My mom has two sisters.

And so my aunts would be there.

My cousins would be there.

And it was always so fun.

I loved being in India and getting to
have that relationship with my cousins

there, but I did always feel like I,
Was missing out on summer here in the

States and all my friends were, you
know, go to the pool and doing all sorts

of summer things and I was kind of off.

I guess we had a, I feel like this
happened even before AOL and AIM.

You know, so we had to write, like,
I remember writing letters to my

friends, and sometimes it would,
the letters wouldn't even arrive

until we got back from the trip.

Just thinking about it is wild,
because now, you know, it's like,

we have WhatsApp, you have social
media, it doesn't really matter.

Minh Vu: Yeah, there's so much there
that you shared that resonates.

Also, I feel like being in the in
between is something that a lot of

people in the Asian community can feel.

I'm curious, since you did do
the summers in India, was it

ever jarring for you coming back?

Like, did you feel did that
just accentuate that in between

feeling a little bit and how
did you feel even in India?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, it was
always an adjustment on both sides.

I specifically remember maybe this
was in like fourth or fifth grade one

summer when I came back before school
started having this long conversation

with my best friend at the time where
she caught me up on every single song

that was popular now that I had missed
and I remember this is very this dates

me this song that was popular at that
time was it was right when Brandy and

Monica that song came out The Boy Is Mine

So, yeah, so I didn't know what was
cool so she had to kind of catch me up.

People in India always
knew that I was American.

I speak Kannada, which is the
language that my family speaks,

but even still, obviously a huge
accent and just the way that I did

my hair and the clothes that I wore.

But I think it was some of the things
that stand out there as being kind

of setting me apart is like clothing.

You know, I would always have to
kind of wear more conservative

clothes in India, like no shorts,
longer skirts, things like that.

No tank tops.

And it was kind of like this in
between of always sort of having to

navigate and figure out where you fit.

And I think that to some extent, that's
still something that I am constantly

navigating and I've been become a lot less
insecure about it and now I know that I

have this tendency and I can catch myself
when I'm wanting to sort of be part of

the club or whatever it is and pull back.

But I think a lot of that stems from
the childhood experiences that I had.

Minh Vu: Yeah, in retrospect, I mean,
do you feel like those summer trips to

India also had like positive effects?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Absolutely.

I have so many just wonderful memories
and I love that I have this connection

to India and that it does feel like a
place that is a version of home for me.

My parents are retired now and
they actually they have a condo in

Bangalore and they spend a couple
months a year there and I have cousins

that are there, my aunts and uncles.

So it's, it's definitely, I think
it was a net positive, but then, you

know, there's just these bits that,

yeah,

Sandra Pham: yeah, yeah.

As you think about your son, do
you consider that you would want

him to spend a significant amount
of time or summers in India?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I don't see
him spending some whole summers

there in the way that we did.

But I do want him to visit India and
I want him to know that this is part

of his culture and his identity.

My partner is white, so he's,
so our son is, you know,

half white, half South Asian.

And, yeah, I want him to know that,
It's a place that he has roots.

So we're kind of in the process of
navigating when that first trip will be.

We have not yet taken him on an airplane.

So that's the limiting factor of just how
long it takes to get there and the travel.

Sandra Pham: When I was reading the
book, and this is kind of in the

early chapters and you kind of bring
this up, I definitely, this was a

moment of like, did I read this right?

So I want to talk about it.

So before you arrived where you got
today, and again, it's, you know, you have

this amazing career, this amazing book,
you talk about navigating your career

early on and you kind of had a pivot.

And so in your late twenties, you
dropped out of a very competitive

residency program and joined a commune
that taught orgasmic meditation.

And that's the first time
I've ever heard that term.

How did that get on your radar?

And more, what I want to dig into,
how did your parents take that?

How did they react?

How did you explain that whole pause?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I decided to include
this part of my story right in the

introduction of the book because I wanted
my readers to know that I was coming to

real self care, not just as a psychiatrist
who takes care of patients struggling

with these things, but also as a human
myself who has made mistakes and kind

of went down the rabbit hole of extreme
wellness and came out the other side.

So that was kind of a decision that I made
because it definitely is a pretty wild

story and people have reactions to it.

And yeah, I, as we had talked
about, I'd kind of gone through

my childhood and teenage years and
early adulthood, sort of striving

to be the good Indian girl, getting
good grades, going to good schools,

becoming a doctor, getting married.

And I found myself in my late 20s in my
psychiatry residency, just completely

burnt out because I had not taken a break.

I just gone from undergrad to med school
to residency and also really disillusioned

with medicine and psychiatry at the time.

You know, I just kind of felt
like the image that I had of

being a doctor was very different
than what it was on the ground.

And, um, I kind of, I had an extreme
reaction that I do not recommend to

other people, but I blew up my life.

I left my marriage, I moved into
this commune in San Francisco, left

my residency, and I went really
down this rabbit hole of alternative

medicine, like all of the "woo"
stuff, like the meditation, the

spirituality, like all of that.

And, um, I realize that also is not
the answer to life's problems, and

there's just as many contradictions
and hypocrisies in the alternative

medicine world as there are in
mainstream medicine, and that you can't

just outsource your decision making,
basically, that you need to really,

that real wellness comes from making
the hard decisions in your own life.

And I always like to share that
when I talk about this, that I was

extremely privileged to be able to
even blow up my life like blowing up

your life is for sure a privilege.

And one of the reasons that I could
is because I did not have loans from

medical school because of all of the
sacrifices that my parents made and

all of their hard work as immigrants
in America gave me the luxury of being

able to have an existential crisis.

So I just want to acknowledge
that and Sandra, your question

of how my parents react.

So it's funny because I, a couple of
months ago, I was on another podcast

that talks about, it's called the Mashup
Americans, where they talk about sort of

like the mishmash of cultural identities.

And I realized that I actually
didn't tell my parents.

I actually, I just did it.

I just was doing it and it was only
after the fact that I told them that

I had left medicine and that I was
with this group and I was exploring

these other modalities, meditation.

And it was tough, you know, that I
didn't talk with my parents for a while,

like maybe a year or so, like that
we were just not really in contact.

And I think we needed that space or I
needed that space to set that boundary

after kind of going so hard for so long
to kind of meet certain expectations.

You know, again, when I talk
about this, I don't mean to...

I think my parents did the best
that they could with what they knew.

And you don't have to set such a
traumatic or violent boundary...

like that was definitely a big rupture.

But it was the only way that I knew how.

The other thing I want to add is
that now, 10 years later, I'm 40 now.

This happened in my late twenties.

I think that it's so interesting because
I don't think that our parents, I say

our, like being model minority Asian, I
don't think they're wrong with steering

us to things like medicine or law or
engineering, like these careers are...

very secure.

Uh, they offer a level of, um, respect
prestige that actually-- We live in a

capital society for better or worse, and
you do your life is better when you have

some money, I would not be able to have
the career that I have now as a thought

leader and to be able to write a book
and all the things that I've done if I

had not, after that period of my life,
gone back to residency finished and

become a board certified psychiatrist
and all those things, even though it

felt like at the time, oh, my gosh,
like, why did I, you know, kind of lose

my twenties to school on the other side?

Now?

I do think it was worth it.

Yeah.

Minh Vu: And I think it does...

I agree.

It does make sense for parents of children
who strive to be like model minorities

or how that ends up happening to what
I, what we've said a lot in the past

is just that like, they want safety
and security for their kids, especially

juxtaposed to maybe the lack of safety
and security they had growing up.

And so what is a surefire way to ensure
that, and it's these types of careers,

playing the game the way it needs
to be played so that you don't get

tripped up and have those other things.

So I think, yeah, that that
does make a lot of sense.

And I think there's like, still
this weird tension to honor, giving

the children an opportunity to
find that security on their terms.

And I think, you know, what you
described in a more, I don't know

if extreme is the right word, in
your way, you had to do that the

way that you needed to at the time.

And I'm really happy to hear
that you were able to come

out on the other side as well.

I think so often people who kind of
get into these types of groups, kind of

get stuck and I'm just curious for you,
like what gave you the will to leave

and the like encouragement or, you know,
courage to, to go ahead and say this

actually isn't what I thought it was and
to kind of go into another direction.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, you
know, I'm actually still kind of

working through how to talk about
that time and kind of processing

for myself how to talk about it.

But I guess one thing that I can
share now is that it was definitely

not any type of like hero's journey.

I thought at the time that I was
letting them down by leaving and I

felt a lot of guilt and shame and it
was not until years and years later

that I found out kind of how dark the
story was inside the group and had a

better understanding of what was going
on that I wasn't aware of previously.

But I think in a lot of ways, it
probably resembles to some degree,

maybe when people leave a religion
and you really do feel like you,

you feel like you're letting them
down, as opposed to feeling like it's

something triumphant at the time.

Minh Vu: I appreciate you sharing that.

Yeah, I can't imagine how difficult
that must have been, but again, glad

that you are here on the other side.

Sandra Pham: This next
section here will shift gears.

We love that you're in Austin.

We're all here Austinites.

You're relatively new to the city.

I'd love for you to share what
kind of brought you down to Texas?

How's the reception been?

And when you look at the other places
that you've lived throughout your life

and career, how does that compare?

You know, the good and the bad?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah.

Yeah.

So my partner, Justin and I
moved to Austin in December 2020.

So really, in the height of the
pandemic, he grew up in Texas, he

grew up outside of Dallas, and he
went to UT Austin for graduate school.

He went to the LBJ school.

So he had lived in Austin
about a decade ago.

We met in Washington, D.

C., and we had been living together.

And in this little apartment, and
then the pandemic hit, we were both

working from home and we realized
that we just wanted more space.

We wanted to get out of DC.

We wanted to leave kind
of the East coast grind.

And so Austin was where
we decided to come.

And so we packed up our
car and our two cats.

We drugged our two cats, I
should say, for the long drive

and we were really lucky too.

It was before housing.

Prices got like super, super wild, so
we were able to buy a house and for, you

know, a reasonable price, whereas in D.

C.

you'd have to pay a million dollars
for like a row home that still needed

to be completely gutted and renovated
and the first year or two, I didn't

get out much because it was still
kind of the height of the pandemic.

It wasn't until really like 2023 that I
started to feel like I was getting to know

Austin and I have to say that I love it.

I love it.

I actually, I've not missed D.

C.

once.

I mean, I miss my friends,
but I do not miss D.

C.

I think that Austin has the perfect
combination of the culture and

amenities of being in a big city while
feeling like you live in A medium

sized town, maybe everyone we know
our neighbors, we hang out with them.

I was invited to join a dinner club, maybe
like a couple weeks after I moved in.

So like I kind of was locked into this
great group of women who have been

meeting once a month for like a decade.

So that.

Was amazing luck.

And when we had our son, we were
able to find a daycare close

by that is affordable, which is
another thing that is not would not

have happened on the East Coast.

And then what else?

I love the food.

I love queso.

So that worked out.

Minh Vu: Had you had it before?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I've had it
once or twice at Justin's, but

not to the level of, of here.

Being able to have it like anytime,
like as an appetizer at any

restaurant, basically that you're at.

It's a food group in itself.

And I like barbecue too.

I love, you know, just the different
like beer gardens and things like that.

Just the vibe of being able to be
outside and having food trucks.

And I really like that it's
so much more laid back than

other places that I've lived.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One thing that is very different, though,
is that Austin is much less diverse

than other places that I've lived.

It feels like, and I, this is true,
there are very few Black people in

Austin, and I think, you know, as
Asians, like outside of Latinx folks,

I feel like we're kind of probably the
most significant other minority, and it

does feel a bit very segregated too, so
that's something that feels different.

So those are things that it's definitely
been an adjustment on that side.

I'm hoping it feels like Austin
is moving in the direction of more

diversity, especially with the
influx of people coming from Texas

and Colorado and the East Coast.

I know people in Austin are
not happy about that, but

Minh Vu: Yeah, I mean, I think that's
part of this, you know, conundrum

that Austin faces a little bit.

The charm is we've heard it described
or have described in the podcast.

It's like a, you know, like you said,
medium, small to medium town pretending

to be a big city, but like has both.

So that's what makes it really appealing.

And then there's all the other stuff
that also provide some challenges

that you mentioned as well, too.

And, you know, hopefully, I think there
is a lot more conversation happening

around it and hopefully a lot more
action too, but yeah, I think Austin,

even for Austinites, there's like
a love hate relationship with it.

So, I think you're naming all the
right things as someone who's been

here for a couple of years now.

You're catching it....

so,

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think maybe the other thing
that's different for me is just

driving because other places that
I lived, I was more reliant on the

Metro or the subway and here having
to drive everywhere is different,

but I actually, I thought that would
bother me more, but it actually hasn't.

Minh Vu: I don't mind a commute.

I live like way South Austin and I
used to live like way North Austin.

So I'd like go down to UT and like a
podcast jamming out to music or even

like, we'll talk about self care here
in a second, but like being able to be

in the car just alone with myself and
like, it's a space it has been in the

past, a space for me to really be able
to just decompress in some ways and

like, yeah, feel, feel like I can be
alone with my thoughts in a good way.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, well, it's a
transition space that when you don't have

it, yeah, it's like abrupt, the change.

Minh Vu: Yeah.

Sandra Pham: Yeah, so you mentioned kind
of the pandemic was a big catalyst for you

and Justin to kind of move down to Texas.

To me, it seems like the pandemic really
also shifted a lot of things for a

lot of folks because we had a lot of
time that we were spending at home.

Self care definitely has really shifted.

Really grown into a buzzword.

A lot of folks are like, really trying
to figure out and define what that means.

A lot of your work is really again,
researched around redefining wellness.

What is faux self care?

Why do you think self care is
resonating with so many folks right now?

Was the pandemic a big
catalyst in all of this?

Or do you think it always existed?

And now we're just spending more
times investing in ourselves?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: So, you know,
when I was writing the book, I was

researching the term self care and I
found that an interesting statistic that

Google searches for self care peaked
the day after Donald Trump's election.

Of course, the pandemic impacted it
for sure, and definitely has put mental

health, I think, more at the forefront
of people's minds, but I also think

that the upheaval that we've experienced
collectively in the United States from

a political standpoint and also all
of the, you know, racial reckonings

that have happened, you know, after
George Floyd's murder, like, I think

that all of those different pivotal
moments are the type of thing that

does sort of define a generation.

And I think that and you know, we see in
Gen Z in particular being so open about

mental health and guarding their peace.

So I think all of that comes into play.

I will say, though, even before I would
say like I graduated residency in 2016.

And so I think even then I would
have patients who were coming in

and they were saying, you know, "Dr.

Lakshmin, I'm stressed out.

I'm burnt out.

I'm not sleeping well.

I'm not eating well.

And I feel like it's my fault
because I have the meditation app

on my phone that I could be using.

I just can't motivate myself to do it."

So I think that's been there.

It's probably just proliferated as people
also were spending more and more of

their lives in the digital world too.

Minh Vu: I just had a question come up
in my head, but like this idea of like

holistic medicine integrating, I feel like
I've heard a lot of conversation around

what is defined in within insurance that's
covered versus like some of the other

practices that people might put self care
or like wellness or other things into it.

I'm curious if you have any like reactions
or thoughts to that as a concept or

practice or like medical evolution?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah.

Well, maybe I'll answer that and then
I can talk about the difference between

faux self care and real self care.

Yeah.

Tied together.

Yeah.

I mean, I think there, there definitely
is a lot more of like holistic

medicine, integrative medicine, and
then all of the kind of complimentary

modalities, like things like, you know,
like yoga, meditation, breathwork,

craniosacral, reiki, like all this stuff.

And, you know, that was one of
the reasons, like kind of feeling

disillusioned with psychiatry was one of
the reasons that I fell so deep into the

wellness world, sort of exploring all of
these different alternative modalities.

And I think what my take is that there
are some things that are evidence based.

You know, yoga definitely has evidence.

Like, exercise in general, movement,
diet, nutrition has an evidence base.

Meditation, too.

But all, none of those things
singularly, is going to treat a major

depressive disorder or a diagnosis of
PTSD or obsessive compulsive disorder.

They will help as part of your overall
program for having a healthier life,

but they're not going to substitute
for taking medication if you have

moderate to severe depression.

Psychiatric conditions, and I think
that we lose that nuance, right?

Like people want to just kind
of have it be one or the other.

And there's a lot of polarization and, you
know, demonization of different things.

I think also that, you know, holistic
and integrative medicine came about

because people feel like mainstream
medicine is not serving them.

In particular, women, they feel dismissed
and they feel like their concerns are not

being properly addressed or they're being
brushed off or, you know, they're just

kind of being told, Oh, no, it's fine.

It's just anxiety or whatever.

And maybe there is anxiety too, but that
doesn't mean that you should be dismissed.

So I think it's important to keep
in mind that these alternative meds.

Practices come up because of a need.

And then the last thing I'll
say is that from what I've seen,

there are great practitioners
in all of these different areas.

And there are bad practitioners
in all of these different areas.

So it really is about the person and
whether they are professional and

licensed, if there's licensing, but
they have integrity and they're staying

in their lane and they know when
something is out of their scope and

they say, oh, actually, you know, you
should go over here to check that out.

And unfortunately, I don't think we
can, or maybe not unfortunately, but

just I think we can't make blanket
statements about any one thing and

just sort of be polarized about it.

So that's the advice that I would give
folks who maybe are trying to think

about what type of practitioners to
see and how to go about choosing.

The whole concept of faux self care
versus real self care is I define

faux self care as a product or a
service that you're doing or buying

in order to make yourself feel better.

So it's kind of a band aid that you put
on the different problems that you're

having, whether you're stressed out or
you're burnt out or you're whatever kind

of the issue is that you're feeling.

And in a capitalist society, we
are encouraged to buy things.

And when we have feelings,
we're encouraged to have buy

things to make us feel better.

Faux self care always keeps
the status quo as it is.

It doesn't cause you to re examine the
power dynamics in your relationships,

or in your family system, or in
your workplace, or your community.

Real self care, on the other
hand, is an internal process.

It's a verb, it's not a noun.

I define it as four principles.

Boundaries, compassion, values, and power.

And when you start practicing these
principles, you will naturally notice

a shift in power dynamics in your
family, in your relationships, in

your wider networks, because once
you start setting boundaries, other

people are going to start responding
to that and treating you differently.

The other thing that's important with
real self care is you can't buy it.

It's not something that you
can just check off a list.

It's a practice.

It's something that you have to learn
sort of like working out, like developing

these muscles, but it stays with you
as a lifelong thing, and it's also not

prescriptive in the way like everybody
has that friend that's like super into

like soul cycle or whatever it is.

And they're like, always like,
"Oh, my God, just do this.

This is the thing."

And you're like, "I hate soul cycle."

There's not one wellness practice.

There's not one form of self care that's
going to be the thing for everybody.

So with real self care, it's like, no,
you need to find your own through the

boundaries, compassion, values, and power.

It's not that the faux self
care is bad or evil or terrible.

It's just that the faux it's a tool.

It's a method.

Whereas the principles, are a principle.

So a principle you can make your own
versus a method is circumscribed for a

specific use in a specific situation.

So to bring this to life, because
this is all like a little bit

heady, a good example is imagine
somebody that goes to a yoga class.

You go to Black Swan, and they're on
their yoga mat the whole time, worried

that they're not wearing the right
Lululemon leggings, and like, the person

next to them can hold a headstand, and
they're like, "oh, like, I can't even

do crow pose," and they leave for like,
the yoga class more in their head than

before they started, like they feel
worse after yoga than they did before

yoga versus somebody who practices real
self care and, you know, sets boundaries

with her partner, let's say, and says,
you know, I need to go to once a week.

So can you be the one to do dinnertime
with our kids or bedtime so I can do this?

And you're compassionate with
yourself when some of that yeah.

Critical self talk comes up.

You don't let it consume you
and you have named your values.

You know why yoga is important to you.

Maybe it's because you like being
in community and your yoga studio

is one of your places of community.

Or maybe for you, it's more about
being in your body and the physicality.

And then you recognize that is
actually power like you taking it.

Your time and your energy outside of our
productivity system to fuel yourself, that

person actually takes in the medicine of
yoga like they're actually present, but

both of those people, like, if you just
look at it superficially, they checked,

like, went to yoga off their list.

Minh Vu: Yeah, that's helpful.

Am I right in maybe understanding
that it's really using a combination

of the principles that you've laid
out and finding which tools are...

live within those principles that
you've identified for yourself.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: So, yes,
and so, yes, in terms of finding

your kind of wellness practice.

That is absolutely right.

There's kind of like a second
level of real self care.

I would say like the 400, like if that's
the one on one is then applying it to

actually like big decisions in your life.

What do I want my career to be?

Do I want to have kids or not?

Who do I want a life partner?

Like in those...

and that doesn't happen overnight
that happens over time, many years,

like we do need the 101, we need
something to help us be able to

kind of get through the day to day.

And once you kind of start building that
muscle, then it becomes also a little

bit easier to see that you can apply
this more widely to other decisions

that you're making in your life.

Sandra Pham: Yeah, I think so much
of what you've said is so true.

We are a very capitalist or capitalism,
like, just driven society, right?

So we are constantly thrown
messages of what self care is.

And I think it's hard.

As an individual to navigate.

Well, what does that mean?

Does that mean just taking
care of my body or, oh, that

means going to therapy, right?

Like there's so many various ways
organizations, people define self care.

And I think it's really hard to
muddle through all of that and figure

out what does that actually mean?

How can I apply it?

In my life, and so I really
appreciate the example that

you just walked through there.

I think that was really
visually or for me helpful.

Minh Vu: What I'm hearing
is principles are...

really like firming up on your individual
principles and what matters to you is

a nice compass and like, North Star to
then help you make decisions about a

lot of aspects of your life and you can
maybe start with like what are these

tools that can help me bring a little
bit more peace to my day to day so that

maybe you're well resourced to then
make larger big decisions in your life

that still live by the principles you're
using to help you bring your maybe more

day to day peace through these tools.

I definitely like the person that would
probably be too self conscious to go

to yoga, so that's not my tool of use.

Building Legos at home by myself, like,
that is, that brings me peace, that

brings me joy, and that helps clear
my mind so that I can, like, think

about Larger things like my career,
relationships, boundaries that I'm

trying to set and how I want to set them.

And I think that's what I'm hearing
is kind of this like 101 up to the

400 type of thing of approaching
real self care in your life.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yes, yes.

And the only thing that I would
add to that great summary, your

summary was much better than mine,
would be that it's always changing.

Like it never ends.

Minh Vu: Mmm.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: It's because you
always have to keep taking care of

yourself as long as you're alive,
and your context is always changing.

You're always moving into different
roles, you're in a new job.

You break up with someone, you
know, somebody passes away, right?

There's always going to
be changes in the context.

And so that, so then you'll find
yourself probably stumbling a little

bit and falling into old patterns.

And that's to be expected for sure.

But as you move along, you'll
catch yourself more quickly.

Minh Vu: Yeah.

I really appreciate you naming that.

Cause I feel like.

As someone that struggles with
rigidity or just like the concept of

like, okay, this is the right way.

And that means that's the final, like
finite way to then navigate life.

But as you mentioned, life continues
to evolve and your situation changes.

And it's okay to make adjustments
as those things happen, as long

as they feel true and good to you.

I want to maybe apply some of this
to another type of example that

our listeners might more resonate
with being Asian Americans.

You know, you mentioned those four
principles, setting boundaries, learning

to deal with guilt, developing self
compassion, how you talk to yourself,

and then getting clear on those values
to make future decisions in life.

As you k now, in a lot of Asian cultures,
children of like immigrant parents can,

I think you mentioned at the beginning,
being parentified at an early age

or feeling like they have a lot of
responsibility at a young age, not only

for themselves, but in some cases for
their parents to, to kind of this concept

of kind of like repaying your parents
for a life that they weren't afforded

because of the sacrifices that they made.

And I can speak for myself where
sometimes I- I've done a lot of work to

not have that be this type of like...

repaying them be my North Star for life
because it doesn't necessarily serve me

and my individual wants and desires, but
there is an aspect that I still want to

honor that I do feel like is a positive
value to want to incorporate some sort

of respect and repayment or just desire
to honor what their experiences have

been so I guess this is a long way to
set up the question of what advice you

give people whose values still kind of
embody family and the desire to show

that love and respect to them, but it
also might conflict with this new paradigm

of prioritizing yourself first and then
the guilt that kind of comes with it?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I love this question.

My answer is going to be very long winded
because I have a couple different things.

It's all good.

I feel like it's a complex thing.

Totally.

So, so I guess the first thing is
of course, you will feel that way,

like, the goal is not to change
your personality completely, right?

If you've spent your whole life living
with this conceptualization of, you know,

my job is to make my parents proud and
to make sure that all the sacrifices

that they made were worth it, then that's
always going to be part of your life--

upbringing or your kind of your blueprint.

So we're not saying that's
going to completely go away.

And, and like you said, I liked your
point that it's not totally bad.

Many cultures have a history and
tradition of honoring elders and

kind of showing and paying respect to
the wisdom of the generation before.

So I want to set it up by
saying like that it's...

it's not a bad thing to feel this way.

And yes, you will, you'll always
have this conflict or this tension.

You'll know that you're moving
in a direction of healthier.

I guess you'll know that you're moving
in a direction of being at peace with the

fact that you will always be in some level
of this conflict when you're not angry at

your parents, when you can make a choice.

Food, I think food is always one of the
ones that this falls around, and I, I'll

just give an example for me years ago,
but like in college, my mom would bring

all of this Indian food to my dorm,
like all sorts of Indian, South Indian

food, and I would never eat any of it,
but I always felt so bad, and so then

it would just be in the freezer, and
then when she would come the next time,

like, I had to give her the Tupperwares,
you know, because, like, they saved all

the cool containers, and it was just,
like, this cycle of guilt and guilt.

Like, I have patients now where
they feel really bad with Asian

parents of saying no to food, like,
parents often, like, bring food.

So, where you can say, you know, we
don't need that right now, or, like,

we're okay, and not feel angry, and
then also not feel consumed with guilt.

If you feel consumed with
guilt, that means that you have

more work to do in therapy.

The place that you want to get to is to
be able to name what the ideal scenario

is and have that be aligned with your
values and something that you've named.

Like, maybe you can say for
yourself, like, this is arbitrary,

but say on each of my birthdays,
it's important for me to have my

parents bring food from our culture.

And I want that to be something
that is included at the table

when we're having dinner.

And that might have a very
specific meaning for you and

signify something in that.

And that's your own thing.

So when you can kind of move in that
direction and then not get angry, if on

top of that, your mom or your dad, like,
makes some sort of comment about it being

the wrong thing or like, blah, blah,
blah, whatever drama happens, letting

that happen, just letting it happen and
not getting enmeshed into it and letting

it ruin the meaning that it has for you.

And your parents might not
understand why that specific thing

has the meaning and that's okay.

I think that's a place where
a lot of people get stuck.

You spend too much energy believing that
you're going to be able to change your

parents mind or that they're going to be
able to understand where you're coming

from and why you're making different
decisions and setting boundaries and

doing things a little bit differently.

They will never completely
understand and that's okay.

When you get to a place of acceptance,
that's when you know that you're

kind of on the right track.

Does that make sense?

Minh Vu: Yeah, I think it's that level of
tension that you might feel when you're

feeling, really I think what we're talking
about is the in between, that in between

feeling that of this like, for me I'll
just say the, I think growing up being

born and raised in the States, there's a
bigger lean to like individualism maybe,

versus Asian cultures that really promote
kind of this collective prioritization.

And figuring out, well, there's parts
of it that I really appreciate and like

growing up, and there's some that just
feel so in contradiction of the aspects of

this individualistic culture or like thing
that really resonates with me or feels

aligned with how I want to live my life.

And what I'm hearing maybe is that
once there's a little bit of acceptance

that tug will always be there...

It's a matter of how much that tension is
impacting the way that you navigate life.

Maybe not navigate life, but yeah,
that tension how much it like

dictates your reactions to things or

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: yeah, how
much distress it causes you Yeah,

Minh Vu: yeah, that's where you'll
notice as less distress happens over

time you're starting to really embody
those values that you want to live by.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yes.

And the only other thing I
would add there is that it's

okay to pick and choose, right?

Because what the generation
before probably would ideally

want is that you take everything.

You do all the things.

All of your kids know the language,
you're eating the food all the time,

like everyone goes to this, right?

And you get to decide.

And it will take time.

It will take many years for you to land.

On the right equilibrium.

So I just want to also name that like,
don't beat yourself up for skewing one

way or the other, because you will as
you're navigating this, you're figuring

this out to alongside helping heal
some of the intergenerational wounds.

Sandra Pham: And I think what I'm
hearing is that it's also flexible as

you continue to recognize these things
that there's a constant conversation

that you have with yourself of what
feels comfortable and right for you.

And once you recognize that and what your
threshold is and when you say that's okay.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Sandra I just want to
say I like that you mentioned that it's

a conversation with you that you have
with yourself, and it's important to know

that you probably won't be able to have
that conversation with your parents, and

that's okay, and maybe you will at some
point, but your goal should not be to

have the conversation with your parents.

Sandra Pham: Yes, that is just on a
personal note, something I constantly

work on and reconciling and just
acceptance of these are likely

conversations that I will never have
out loud with my parents, but they are

conversations that I have within myself.

So that struck a note there, but
I want to move in this topic.

I think is very interconnected with
what we're discussing here, but

something else that you discussed and
I know you even hosted a panel around

this is intergenerational trauma
when we're discussing our parents.

There are a lot of beliefs and
behaviors of our culture that we

inherit from our families or ancestors.

Some of them may remain unconscious.

Some of them don't as, as you start to
invest more in discovering your own values

and again, figuring out how much of.

What your parents expectations and
all of that you work and invest in.

I'm curious through this session in this
panel that you've had in discussions that

you host, how do we consciously disrupt
some of these intergenerational traumas?

How do we even begin to begin
the work and scratch the surface?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, I mean,
I think it's a really big topic.

We could spend an hour
talking about that in itself.

I would say actually the boundaries
piece is the first start.

The conversation we just had about
how to navigate what's yours versus

what is theirs and what is ours.

Those three different buckets.

That is the way in to doing some of
this intergenerational trauma work

because the thing with immigration
trauma is that it's a loss.

It's a loss of a past culture,
you know, a physicality of people.

So, the way that somebody responds
to losing something is to try and

hold onto it, to try and get it back.

And so, the navigation of cultural
traditions, and language, and food,

and all these things, is that.

ends up being some of the battleground.

And I don't think that you should, it's
usually not helpful to start directly.

You have a better chance of having it
be received if you come from an indirect

place, like with boundaries, like, you
know, it's not going to, it's not going

to work if you just sort of be like,
"Hey, let's have a conversation about

intergenerational trauma, because I'm
talking to my therapist about this.

And I realized that Blah, blah, blah."

Like, that's not going to go over well.

Minh Vu: Yeah, as you're sharing
specifically around this, like,

boundaries topic, and I think it makes
a lot of sense that being kind of the

first step into maybe, like, disrupting
this intergenerational trauma cycle.

But, you know, I feel like a lot of
people maybe in the community might

have trouble with the sticky nature
of what's their boundary versus

my boundary versus our boundary.

And I'm curious if like there, I know
there's probably not a one size fits all

solution to being able to sift through
and like pull apart which ones actually

is your individual boundary, like what
feels good to you versus like what has

been told to you as like a boundary.

I'm curious if there's any sort of helpful
question that someone can ask themselves

that can make that a little bit more
clear about what's my boundary versus

the boundary that I've lived by, but
it's maybe like my family's boundaries.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I would say
collect data on things that are

less important and see how you feel.

Let's say a small one is like
whether people take their shoes

off when they come into your house.

And even if that's like a clear thing
for you, yes or no, maybe play around

with either side and then see how you
feel because the feeling that you get,

like if there is like an aversion or
like a feeling of disgust, then you

know, Oh, this was, that's what it feels
like when a boundary has been crossed.

Or if you like don't really have any
feelings and it's kind of like a non

event, then you're like, Oh, okay.

That's how I know that's what it
feels like in my body when I'm a yes.

So try that with things that are
very low states because everybody's

line is different and everybody's
body responds differently.

But the thing that will tell
you is your body's response.

Minh Vu: Yeah.

And what I'm hearing in that
example, it's like, yeah, maybe you

lived your life with being like,
I'm a no shoes inside household.

But actually when I've like tested
this thing, I don't, it doesn't

really impact me that much when I see
people wearing shoes in the house.

And so maybe that was a boundary that
I grew up with that not necessarily one

that aligns with things that I really
value or like how it impacts my feelings.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

Minh Vu: Appreciate that.

Yeah.

Sandra Pham: Yeah, and that's
a good one to start with.

Minh Vu: Yeah, very low stakes.

I go back and forth with that one.

I'm definitely a no shoes
household, but yeah, I have

definitely broken that for myself.

And like, if I forget something
in the house, I'm like walking

back in the house with shoes.

That's okay for me.

Sandra Pham: Look, well, Dr.

Lakshmin, we are so internally grateful.

I personally feel like I've just gotten a
really therapeutic session that I didn't

know I was going to go through today,
but it's, I think we could definitely

spend hours on a lot of these topics.

I think there's so much to dig here, but
so appreciative of the work that you do.

I think we would be remiss if we
didn't mention a lot of the work

that you do is really stemmed in Dr.

Lakshmin.

Understanding, recognizing the systemic
barriers when it comes to these

intersectional identities that we carry
and have as women as, you know, being

people of color and things like that.

And so I just want to
recognize that it's...

we are just so grateful to have these
kind of very nuanced conversations and

feel that there is so much work to be
done, but just to have the privilege of

having the conversation, just thank you.

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Well, it
was absolutely my pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

I enjoyed being here with you both.

Sandra Pham: You have an amazing book.

It is called "Real Self-Care."

So check that out.

If you haven't.

We'd like to close the episodes
with our guests doing a rapid fire.

So if you're up for it, just let us
know the first thing that comes to mind.

But before we do that, we'd like to
ask all of our guests this question.

What is your Asian American
identity mean to you today?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I think right
now as a parent, having a little

kid, I think I'm thinking about it
a lot in terms of next generation

and especially having a kid who is.

biracial, and will likely be
sort of ethnically ambiguous, I

think, in terms of his skin tone.

I'm thinking about what pieces
I want him to take with him,

and I'm not totally sure yet.

I'm open and curious right now
about my identity on that side.

Sandra Pham: Yeah, curiosity, I think, is
a wonderful way to kind of position that.

So rapid fire, here we go.

What is your favorite
Asian snack grown up?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Oh, Chakli.

Which is a South Indian like fried dough.

It's basically just fried dough.

Yeah.

Sandra Pham: Oh, okay.

Is that something that could, you could
purchase packaged or is that made at home?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: You can
get it packaged and I think

they do have it at H Mart.

Sandra Pham: Oh, okay.

We'll look out for that.

Where do you have fun in Austin?

Oh, where do we have fun?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: One place
that I really like is Meanwhile.

The brewery in South Austin,

Sandra Pham: you're a Southie, you're
a Southie, that's very far from me.

But Meanwhile-- it's a great one.

And then is there an example
or a principle that you feel

comfortable sharing that's a
self care principle for you?

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Gosh, I
have so many, but I talk about

this in the book, the pause.

So I say that the boundary is the pause.

And then you always have three
choices, yes, no, or negotiate.

Because no always has a cost.

So you might not always be able to
say no, but you can always pause.

Minh Vu: I love that.

Well, just plus one to what Sandra said,
it was a pleasure to be able to talk to

you today and hear more about your story.

Thank you for sharing and getting
a little personal with us.

I appreciate you.

And I'm sure all of our listeners
appreciate being able to learn a

little bit more about kind of what
led to the great success and book

and journey that you're on now today.

So thanks again for sharing
that with us and I hope you

have a great rest of the year.

How are you doing Sandra?

Sandra Pham: I feel like I
got a free therapy session.

Thank you so much, Dr.

Lakshmin.

How do we even summarize that?

I think there are so many thoughts
in my head because a lot of these

topics are so close to my heart.

Those are real conversations
I'm having with my therapist.

I think it's no secret.

I really value my therapist.

I've been going for four years
now and a lot of these are just,

yeah, just resonated with me.

Minh Vu: Yeah, and I mean, same, like,
these are conversations and topics that

I'm, like, actively working through
in progress of, have made a lot of

strides in, but also still continue to
figure out what works best for me, and

I think it was just so comforting to
be able to talk to someone that gets

it, and that there's a shortcut there.

Sandra Pham: You know what, I walk
away that conversation and will

probably for the rest of the day
and just telling myself that's

okay, that's okay, right, like,

Minh Vu: yeah,

Sandra Pham: things shift and change your
values, your boundaries, all of that.

Those are conversations
you have with yourself.

But I think you also need to grant
yourself the grace and permission

to tell yourself that's okay.

These are not conversations that I need
validation from others, specifically

my parents, to ever mouth those
words to me and say, that's okay.

I think those are things
that I have to really accept.

And that, that's my biggest takeaway.

And those words sound so
simple to say, that's okay.

But boy, that is really hard.

That is really hard.

Minh Vu: And to actually, like, feel it.

Yeah, and

Sandra Pham: not be fake about it.

Be like, oh, like, to actually feel.

Minh Vu: I don't know if it's like
the millennial generation or like

what, but I feel like self deprecation
and just being like, lol my life, I

don't know, that's fine, whatever.

It's so common and it can be helpful
in some ways, but it, to what she was

talking about, doesn't really, getting
to the root of what, You feel is true

for you, like actually true and knowing
what that feels like and feeling good

about it can really make a difference
in coming into that acceptance.

If you don't truly feel like you've
come into that acceptance, there

will still, you'll, there might be
resentment, there might be anger, like

she was mentioning, and those aren't
necessarily sustainable emotions to have

every time you're encountering these.

Sandra Pham: I'm going to challenge
you here because it's the question that

you asked on how to, I think, figure
out what's your boundaries versus

someone else's versus your parents
and things like that, and something

that she kind of positioned was the
best way to really figure that out is

to gather data to really have those
tests or whatever, what do you think

you're going to challenge yourself...

what boundary are you going
to challenge yourself?

Minh Vu: I also had to just
take a big deep breath as you

were asking this question.

And I'm going to ask you
it right back at you.

You're not making me be the only
one to answer this question.

I think one thing that I've noticed for
me is I used to, I don't know if it's,

I don't think this was like, a familial
boundary, like a boundary that I inherited

from my parents or anything like that.

Like, I don't think it was, but there was,
I don't know, even if it's a boundary,

but what I'm trying to say is basically
when I'm at an event or hanging with

friends or things like that, and I feel
myself like oh, I think I'm ready to go.

But in the past I've just stayed I've
stayed until almost like the last one...

almost I guess if you want to call it
like FOMO or like some sort of thing that

I'm like missing out on something and not
wanting to miss out on that then I have

like forced myself to stay even though my
body and my feeling is like, oh, I think

I'm ready to go and I've definitely...

I've definitely I feel like I've
done a lot more work to be like,

no, I'm going to go home now.

And that's fine.

I'm at my limit.

Or I used to have like three or
four things scheduled in one day

of extracurricular activities.

And I think that does probably come from
my parents a little bit of being always

busy and don't waste time, don't always
be productive, always be doing something.

And these days I notice when like I'm out
and about and I do one event and I'm like,

this is good, but there's like still time
left in the day and I'm like, well, I

could maybe add on this other thing too.

I have that pause where I'm like, wait.

I don't think I actually need
to add another thing to my day.

I can go home and building
a Lego set sounds nice.

So I think just continuing to gather
that type of data to feel more, even more

confident and being able to make those
decisions without any sort of like regret

or yeah, resentment or anything like that.

Sandra Pham: Yeah, I
think that's a good one.

And I know we've talked about
that one and exploring that

one, because it's a tough one.

Minh Vu: I like to be around people.

So, yeah.

What about you?

You tell me, how are you
going to challenge yourself?

Sandra Pham: So one that I've been
working on, and I think when you

first hear it, it kind of feels like
silly or maybe more playful, like

the shoe thing, but mine is around
food and not feeling the need to eat.

Eat all of my leftovers and things.

Right?

Like I grew up in a household
single mom four kids.

It was like if there's food in
the fridge granted we are on

the sixth day of this leftover.

We are going to eat it until it is gone.

You do not throw out food.

You do not waste food.

I just have struggled with that so
much because a I just hate I hate

leftovers And I hate eating the same
thing and that sounds so privileged

because it is but feeling not so bad
and guilty on just saying, like, I

don't need to eat this like I'm...

I'm done.

I've had it.

I've enjoyed it.

It's also probably gone bad.

I'm not going to force myself to eat
this for the 6th day and managing

that because food, I think, is
such a big part of the culture,

but also not being wasteful, right?

And there's figuring
out how I can do that...

without feeling so, so guilty
about it, because I do.

Minh Vu: Yeah, it's so funny that food
is such a topic within the community.

Even the example that she brought up,
because I have gone through the same

things of just feeling guilty of either
taking food from my parents and then

like I can't eat it all and then I do
have to end up returning to where but

does that mean like I throw out the
food and then I feel guilty about that?

Sandra Pham: You tell your
parents you like one thing.

I'll go.

I'm craving bun bo hue or whatever so
it's a Vietnamese noodle dish and my

mom will cook for a household of like
10 people and I'm like mom I live alone.

Minh Vu: Oh, I know.

Sandra Pham: And you're not going
to eat this morning, day, and

night, and it's going to go bad.

And so have I lied to her when
she's like, Oh, did you eat it all?

Yeah, I've dumped half of it and just
been like, here's your Tupperware back.

Minh Vu: Yeah.

It's a way of life of cooking for
a lot of people and for it lasting

a lot of time because that's how
they grew up and those were the

circumstances they had to like live by.

Sandra Pham: But I didn't enjoy it any
less because I threw some of it out.

I just can't do it.

But anyway, so that's mine.

Minh Vu: Yeah, cool.

Well, hopefully some of this
stuff resonated with you.

Hopefully there were some tidbits and
things that you feel like you can take in

your day to day and apply it to your life.

We're all doing our best.

We're all, that's all
we can really ask for.

Everyone from our parents to
ourselves to our kids to just the

relations that we have in our lives.

I think it's important to remember
that people are generally doing

their best and that ebbs and flows.

I think that's the other important
thing to remember is that things can

evolve and change and that's okay.

Sandra Pham: Yeah.

Well with that take care of
yourselves y'all and bye.

Minh Vu: Bye y'all